It was Henry Nouwen who said that even the people that love us, don’t always love us well. So one could say that though their is perfection in their desire to respond lovingly to God’s invitation, the responding might still be quite imperfect. Wesley once compared us to an out of tune piano. Even if the Holy Spirit plays it perfectly, the sound isn’t perfect.

“The God who gives and receives love in relationship is one whose experiential life persists moment by moment.  God loves us in one moment. We may or may not love in return. God receives our response and loves us in the next moment. We may or may not love in return. God receives our response again and loves us in the next moment. On it goes. This is part of what relational theology suggests constitutes an ongoing love relationship.”

“We can be perfect in any particular moment, if we love in that moment. If we respond appropriately to God’s empowering and inspiring call to love, we can act perfectly in that instant. We can be like God – in that moment.” Until I read this article I thought there was not a way for us to be perfect. Only Jesus was perfect. However, now I understand how in thinking this wasy and with God’s help we can be perfect in a moment.
“We can love in any moment when we respond appropriately in that moment to God’s call to love. And as we respond well repeatedly, we develop the virtuous characters. We act as saints. God uses our moment-by-moment responses of love to form us into a people – both as individuals and as a Church – who live lives of love.” This makes good sense to me. Practice makes perect. I would never say that I am perfect to anyone but I can strive towards the perfection by learning what it is to respond in each moment with love. That takes a lost of learning and practice as to what real love in action is.

I have tried at different to explain the Wesleyan understanding of perfection to congregations - with limited success.  This is very helpful.
The idea that perfection is not something we “conjure up on our own” is especially important as is “we are perfect when we respond appropriately to God in any particular instant”.
Perfection can be a difficult concept for those of us who have encountered “perfect people.”  It was a difficulty the Wesleys fought throughout their years of preaching and teaching.  But they persisted - as must we.

I like the idea that if we love as God calls us to love we are perfect, but I am not convinced that we can always be this loving?

In answer to the question “Are Christians always perfect?”, experience tells us “No they are not”, not in this life, but with the righteousness of Christ imputed to us I believe we can look forward to and press on towards the perfection that most certainly will always be part of our inheritance in the next life after our resurrection.

Rivers Of Meaning

I really like the thought that “perfection is not something we conjure up on our own”. I would say that it is not us trying really hard to love perfectly on our own. This leads to a legalistic society similar to that of the Pharisees. We cannot be perfect on our own it is the Holy Spirit that allows us to be ‘perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect.

Your definition of God being double perfect is somewhat confusing. It seems a little like God is schizophrenic, which is hard to accept for me. A little more clarification here would be helpful.

I have been taught that the word most commonly translated “perfect” in the NT could better be translated as “complete” or “mature”. If we accept that definition, then we see that God is NOT changeless (as in a statue) but that He is complete - lacking nothing, in all ways the ultimate end. So, we CAN be called to perfection as a process of becoming more complete/mature. In regards to God’s nature and actions, I believe that this means that whatever His “changes”, they will be in accordance with His essential completeness - i.e. they will always demonstrate His perfection.

I am so happy to see that you have talked about something I truly struggle with. I beat myself up constantly because I try so hard to be perfect when deep down I know I am not and never will be. I get caught up in thinking that I must do everything just right in order to get acceptance from anyone.

God calls us to love as he does. Our ability to love is ever changing as we as humans are ever changing. Our human nature is to not be perfect as God calls us to be, yet we can only try to follow God as closely as possible in accordance to His will. In my opinion love is not the key to perfection. The ability to love others comes first with loving yourself and many of those who love others forget about themselves. Perfection is something we all wish we could obtain, although it is not possible we can only try to walk a path God would approve of.

I think it is very interesting to think about how God is “doubly perfect”.  To say that God calls us to be perfect in every way as He Himself is perfect would mean that we become like God.  This is not something that is affirmed in Scripture or in Christian history.  God is God and we are sinful humans in need of restoration. 
Yet God does call us to be perfect as He is. 
I think that like John Wesley has said that perfection is defined by love, because of the Christian call to love God and love neighbor.  The distinction between God’s unchanging perfection and His changing perfection is extremely helpful in showing us what Jesus means when He calls us to be perfect.  Thank you for this entry, it shows the seriousness of the call to holiness without disregarding it completely due to impossibility or thinking that we are called to become like God in every way.

DOING ALL GOD ASK YOU TO IS BEING PERFECT
IF YOU THINK YOU WILL NEVER BE PERFECT
LIKE GOD ASK YOU TO, YOU ARE CERTAINLY
GOING TO HELL
SEE:
GEN.17:1
MT.5:48

CONCLUSION:
ASK GOD TO HELP YOU BE PERFECT
HE CAN DO IT IF YOU DESIRE AND
ASK HIM
1PET.5:10-11
PS.18:30-32
PS.37:4-5

Even as I ponder this concept of perfection I was very elated just thinking that humanity can be godlike in character.  I was also amazed to think that God would call imperfect humanity to fulfill the call to perfection.  As I ponder I began to realize that the call to perfection is not a call to human perfection where we never forget or we are doing things flawlessly rather this perfection is attributed to our relationship with God.  This was confirmed as I read the blog reiterating that this perfection according to Wesley is expressing love.  Therefore, to love is to please God or to please God is to love.  So, it is as we love that we become more like God.  This kind of perfection cannot be humanly orchestrated but we are enabled by God to fulfill His commandment to be perfect.  I truly appreciate this insight which encourages perfection as we are so much more like God in perfection when we love Him and others.

“If we respond appropriately to God’s empowering and inspiring call to love, we can act perfectly in that instant. We can be like God – in that moment.”

It is amazing how God can truly be perfect and unchanging.  He is so powerful that people’s lives do change for the better if they put their whole self to believing in him and living like him.  God changes people’s insight on life and they feel like a different person.

I had never heard of Charles Hartshorne until reading this blog response. By understanding this idea of God’s two natures, as they related to being “perfect,” I am able to have a better grasp on the subject of perfection. The fact that we cannot attain God’s perfection in the eternal form, but can attain perfection in the living experience, gives confidence in life.
I also found John Wesley’s understanding of spiritual formation to be quite refreshing.  Wesley’s understanding of spiritual formation is a great and simple check system I can implement into my life. In all situations I can simply ask myself “Is this pleasing or displeasing to God,” and depending on my answer will hopefully help me to continually make better decisions.

“We need one final conceptual element to make sense of what it means to follow Jesus command to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. That final piece comes in thinking about what it means to have a moment-by-moment, give-and-receive relationship of love.”
We all want to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect, but we all know that that can be very hard.  Being perfect is something that we can always be striving for as living human beings.  God calls us to love one another, and in an attempt to constantly be giving and receiving love as God does then we are one step closer to being “perfect like God.”

(for Theology of Love class)

I found it interesting that this whole notion of perfection was based upon love.  Although I am not totally convinced, that love and perfection are completely interchangeable, I do agree that they are heavily related.  I liked the part about how it says that God loves in a way in a certain instance and then in the next instance may love a different way arguing the point that God is in time, perfect and does somewhat change unlike contrary belief.  I think this notion is interesting because there are so many instances in our world that are not black and white.  They have a lot of gray areas and therefore maybe God’s love is different from each individual instance, yet at the same time God is still perfect in this love.

I really like this explanation of God’s perfect nature. It shows a balance between His eternal nature along with His relational side. If the two are not distinguished between, it can become hard to understand both sides as perfect. So often I hear people saying that only God is perfect, so that makes me think that no matter what I do I will never be perfect. It is encouraging to hear that we can love perfectly like God.

In my opinion, God’s perfection of love is unattainable.  No Christian man/woman will be able to obtain the kind of love that God gives to us.  God created us out of love, but what have we done.  We have fouled our planet with sin and gone against God.  All Christians have sinned at some point in their lifetime because we can only learn from our mistakes.  God will let us know when we are out of line.  Until we have fallen off the path of God’s love, we will not know what His love feels like until then.
I think Charles Hartshorne words it perfectly.  God’s nature of love is “unchangingly perfect.”  We Christians will change over time but God’s perfection of love to us will never change.  He will still speak to us and seek out the greatness in us to become a devoted Christian.  All we can do, is to try to give the same amount of love to others that He graciously gives us every day.  In many ways this can be challenging, which is why our love is imperfect.  God’s love is the only perfect love because His is unconditional.

(Theology of Love class)

I always have trouble putting my thoughts into words but I like a statement Hartshorne made about God is doubly perfect.  On one hand God is unchanging and the other changes.  Through this idea I believe we can be perfect like God.  We are ever changing creatures and after all he did create us in His own image.  I have to believe that he would not ask something of us that He would not do Himself.  So the statement by Hartshorne makes sense.  I also believe we can be perfect in the moment.  We are human and can not always be perfect but in certain moments we can be.  Moments of perfection are those when we do accept God’s love and when we do His callings.  Perfection in itself I believe is everchanging!
(Love Theology)

I have never tied love and perfection together to be God like.  God has made us in his image.  So we do or should have the capability to be perfect is some portions or moments of our lives.  Perfection, like glory in our lives, is always fleeting.  We must strive to constantly obtain and try to maintain love to be God like.  I do believe that God in fact is an un-moveable mover.  God has set the stage for all.  God is all knowing and all powerful.  God loved us first.  We have the choice to give love to God or not.

Hartshorne’s description of God’s doubly perfection nature certainly affords one a better understanding of who God is and how the divine relates to humankind and our persuit of Holiness. As living creatures, we share God’s capacity for moment-by-moment experience, which includes love. Inasmuch, we fulfill our purpose as humans when we make the choice to love in response to God, at any one time throughout the day. Thus, we are perfect because we are fulfilling our purpose. The only question that remains (for myself) pertains to the particulars of God’s unchangingly perfect nature. What is these characteristics? Does Hartshorne’s unchangingly perfect God still remain true to the God of Classical Christianty?

In my opinion, I feel as though we can not be perfect like God.  We can attempt over and over to love and be loved as God has designed but it isn’t the same.  God loves us before we are born, when we are alive, after we die no matter what we do or feel towards him.  There is no way we can love anyone in that same way.  I think the closest that human beings get to loving the same way God loves us are our children.  We want the best for them and love them unconditionally, which is how God loves us.  We are his children.  I do however believe that we can do our best to love our enemy, best friends, family, and most importantly God to the best of our ability.

When I consider perfection I realize it’s from the view of the world. Whether this be done academically by obtaining A’s or physically by striving for some standard of physical beauty. In day to day life the world’s standard of perfection can make us feel inadequate and even bring down one’s self esteem. This blog post reminds Christians that that is not the type of perfection God wants or desires from us. Yes, we should be our best selves, yet above that we should love as God he loves. Indeed, perfection can be more attainable when it is biblical perfection; loving moment to moment is possible.

Growing up in the Nazarene church I have always heard the term entire sanctification, or in other words perfection. This always sent my head spinning to think that a person could be perfect as God is perfect. If we look at it, like you said, in a moment by moment event, we can achieve points of perfection. God is always perfect and we can never be as great as him. What we can do is strive to get at close as we can, focusing on the moments in our lives that we can show love. “This means that perfection is not something we conjure up on our own. Instead, we are perfect when we respond appropriately to God in any particular instant.  But it does mean that we can be perfect now.  We don’t have to wait until heaven.” It is in these moments when we are with God.

I like the “doubly perfect” God idea. I believe that Hartshorne’s opinion that God is unchanging and changing at the same time was on target. I believe that God is eternally unchanging and changing in being relational and living all at the same time. It is hard for me to grasp the idea of humans being “perfect” like God, in any sense. I understand the concept of acting perfectly in the instant of responding to God’s inspiring call to love, but I feel that only God is perfect. I am more comfortable with John Wesley’s quote of “We are every moment pleasing or displeasing to God”. It is a hard concept to wrap my mind around, but I still believe that God is the only “perfect” being.

I found it very interesting that Hartchorne said that God is doubtably perfect. I guess I had never thought about the option of it. The quote:“We know that creatures are inherently changing beings. So how can those who inevitably change imitate a God who never changes?” really got me thinking.  Because of all the changing it would seem as though the ‘qualifications’ for being ‘perfect’ would have to change;  and that can cause some major confusion.  So being able to have love be the consistent definition means we can have just that much more clarity in how to follow in Christ’s footsteps.

I am not sure how perfect and loving goes hand in hand. If something were perfect how can someone be “pleasing and displeasing to God” if we also displease God. Loving moment to moment, I believe is more practical than being perfect. Many of us have shown love, and many strive to use that as a setting stone to become closer to God. But when someone loves, I do not feel it is perfect. I can’t call a diamond perfect if there is a small chip in it. So how would I be loving, and then sin. I think this just ruins my idea of perfect, so every sin would add to that chip in the diamond, making it no longer perfect. But I accept that being flawed.

I think it is very interesting that the ultimate topic is that the simple act of loving entitles someone to be perfect like God. On that same note, I look at the word “simple” and think this is not such a simple task for all. To love someone wholeheartedly can be a difficult concept. There are always the people out there who view loving another completely, a sign of weakness. These are the people that need the most help and I can now see why they are the ones who need the most help. They need God.

The blog brought up some interesting thoughts and feelings for me. I have always viewed the Lord in the Father figure sense, and so perfection was one of those subjects that always grated on me. The Lord knows, above all else that we are not perfect creatures-that we do operate with an underlying sin nature. With that knowledge intact, He asks us to be sperfect? No. I have always thought that He would never give us a challenge that could not be handled…with His help of course. To love in response to the love that He has first shown us is a very impressive way of showing that we can do nothing without His example

This post has helped me to understand what other people think of God and perfection. I absolutely agree that we are dependent on God to love. Context matters. In Mathew 5, Jesus reveals that human nature is to love only those that love you. However, Jesus calls His disciples to love their enemies, bless those that curse them, etc (v. 44). Why? Why would one want to do such a thing which is so irrational and contrary to human nature? Jesus gives an answer, “That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven…” (v.45). God loves those who hate Him in action. The word ‘perfect’ has a strong connotation, in Ukrainian language, of being complete.  God is complete in the sense that He loves both those who love Him and hate Him. If God is our Father, then this has to be our trait (nature) also.

To “be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect,” is a tall order. I don’t think it is possible to perfect beings to the extent that God is while we are still on earth. How perfection is defined can change how close we are to attaining it.  I agree that we cannot come within sight of perfection apart from God and his guidance. I understand that Dr. Oord is saying that we can be perfect in moments when we are loving like God loves and doing God’s will for us at that time, by being empowered by God.  I suppose this is possible if we surrender ourselves completely over to God, dieing to ourselves and allowing God to move through us.  I think few people seek God intensely enough for those “perfection” moments to last very long. And all of us will far short more often than we like.

For me it was difficult to understand Hartshorne’s view of divine perfection.  He said that “his distinction between God’s eternal nature as unchangingly perfect and God’s living experience as changingly perfect.”  I was not clearly sure how it works.
However, I definitely agree that “perfection is not something we conjure up on our own”.  I personally have a problem trying to make things work by my own strength.  Then I eventually realize that I am not the one who is in control of my life.  It is God.  With his unlimited love and care for us, he makes things possible depending on what is best for us.  I believe that it is impossible for human beings to be perfect like God.  However, with his love, he can be great source and support for us in order to make us as perfect as human being can be.

I agree with the fact that we can attain perfection in a single moment in a sense, but yet still fall extremely short of perfection as a whole. We just need to keep striving to have more and more of those moments. I would like to reference the initial look at biblical references where Dr. Oord is showing that God seems to have emotion or that he is impacted by how someone responded to him. Perhaps because the Bible was written by humans, could it be that it was their perception of God that they wrote down instead of what God is? Could it be the nature of our unperceivable God and our nature to try and define and understand everything that we are seeing in the Bible? I believe that God interacts with the world but am not sure about the full implications of that statement.

I love the Wesley quote “We are every moment pleasing or displeasing to God, according to our works; according to the whole of our present inward tempers and outward behavior.” God created us for a purpose and when we are loving and obedient, we are perfectly acting as He intended.
I also find the concept of moment-by-moment perfection interesting. Obviously, no human can attain complete God-like perfection this side of heaven, but I do not believe God would call us to “be perfect” if it were completely impossible.

Wesley’s notion of momentarily imitating God in God’s perfection is an interesting concept. Wesley seems to have incrementalized time into small periods in order to deem someone as perfect, or at least perfect in their action(s). I can’t help but feel like this is just a clever bit of semantics on Wesley’s part. I feel like Wesley took the point that he wanted to prove (humans emulating God-like perfection) and worked backwards to a satisfactory solution (momentary perfection).

This verse has always caused some distress and debate because it seems inconceivable. Be perfect like God is perfect? Why would we be given a command we cannot fulfill? Thereby the concept of moment-to-moment perfection by responding to love makes more sense. We may not be able to be perfect all the time—in fact we can’t—but we can respond to God’s love and in that moment be perfect. This concept at first seems like a simple way to explain something we don’t understand. Since we can’t be perfect all the time it seems like a good way to avoid the problem. That’s when the relationship aspect makes so much sense. Because we are in a relationship with God, He is a relational being. So His perfection is subject to change, which arguably adds to the perfection of His love, not detracts. A counter-argument would be what happens in those moments when you are not perfect? Is it a sin? It is missing the mark but imperfection in the sense of not responding to love appropriately is not in the ten commandments. However our aim should always be on attaining perfection and developing a lifestyle of perfect love.

The idea of Christ-like perfection has long been a source of theological questions for me. Years ago, I heard a simple analogy that helped me cope with never really having my own answer:
Imagine lying in a dried-up riverbed for a nap, where smooth stones are scattered all over. Just before falling asleep, you feel a jabbing stone in your back, so you dig and remove it. Just as you try to fall asleep again, you feel another stone, so you remove it as well. This continues, and a restful nap never comes, because the riverbed is full of stones and you’ll never remove them all.
Pursuing perfection is the same, I think, so this idea of moment-by-moment perfection rings true. We must always work towards perfection if we ever see want to see the fulfillment of our perfection—even if we have to wait until the end of time.

Christ’s teachings in the Gospel tell us to try to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect. I find this very interesting because I feel we will never in any way be as perfect as God. God is the inventor; He made us, He made perfection, and He made love. We are certainly to follow in His footsteps and strive to be like Him, as Christ taught us. I do think that following Him will lead us to the highest level of human perfection. I think we as humans have fleeting moments of perfection, for instance when we display pure love, while God’s perfection is constant. I think Dr. Oord summed it up when he said, “If we love as God calls us to love, we are perfect.  More precisely: if in any particular moment, we respond to God by loving as God asks us to love, we are perfect in that moment as God is perfect in every moment.” We will never even come close to being on the same level of perfection as God, but we are created in His image because we are to try and be like Him to the best of our abilities.

I really like Hartshorne’s thought about God being doubly perfect. The fact that God is unchangeable and always perfect makes things more difficult for people to be perfect like God (since we are always changing).  Hartshorne saying that God is doubly perfect, unchanging in His eternal nature and changing in His living experience, allows for a different perspective.  I also found it interesting how people are perfect when loving and the fact that it is moment by moment where as God is always perfect and always loving.

I like this explanation of what it means to be perfect as God is perfect because it is attainable for us here on earth. This thinking really goes against what I was taught. I was always told no one is perfect or can ever be perfect except for Jesus. Instead I should strive for perfection but won’t reach it until heaven. If being perfect means choosing to love moment to moment then I can love and be perfect right now on earth.  I also like how this blog post portrays God as a relational being, loving us in each moment thus making our love a response to His.

In order to understand what perfect love is one has to define what perfect is. When I think of perfection, I think of being flawless which by no means an individual can achieve because we all have made mistakes and sinned in our lives. However, it is through God’s grace that one can hope to achieve perfection. He calls us to love one another regardless of race, gender, or religious beliefs; this may sound impossible to obtain or do, yet with work and above all faith in God this can be achieved.

I am no biblical scholar by any means… but that does not mean that I, as an opinionated human being, have not formulated personal beliefs about ideas regarding “religion” and the Christian faith.  What if our definition of being perfect is not God’s definition of being perfect?  What if there is no such thing as being perfect only just “being?”  What if Jesus’ challenge to the world is to just “be?”  “Be” a light to others, “be” loving and kind to everyone, “be” in the Word daily, “be” as Jesus was.  This is what is so great about having faith in God.  He allows us to search for reasons, formulate answers and work hard to try and fully understand how amazing and mysterious He is.

I believe that we as Christians, as a part of loving God, are called to be in relationship with God. The very base and core of our faith as Christians rests on the idea of being in relations with him, communicating with him, and reproducing his will through love. I also believe that God created us in his image, which is what allows us to have relationships with him and with each other. And because of this, I do not accept the idea of the “unmoved mover.” We as people change constantly- from day-to-day, moment-to-moment, and year-to-year. We as changing creations as having been made in the image of God cannot have a perfect, loving relationship with God unless he as God is changing and remaining perfect with and because of change.

It was interesting that loving perfectly relates with being perfect in beings. The part where it says when we love as God calls us to love, respond back to God’s perfect love; we can be perfect got me confused a bit. This phrase got me to wonder how about the things we do as “sinners”? How does that apply on this theology of love and perfection? Though I agreed on the unchanging love of God. I was not sure about Carl F. H. Henry statement of God is unchanging in a way to be perfect. As it is mentioned that God is also relational. I would think being relational would allow some changes for the both side to respond back to each other. All these questions gets me back to think God really can’t be defined in our words.

I would have to say the point this blog is trying to make has merit. I can see the perspective that being perfect like God is merely responding to his love and being not perfect is to not respond to his love on a moment by moment basis. I think the problematic part of this commentary is the way the word “perfect” is used in society. I guess my only problem comes down to the definition of the word perfect. To be perfect, in the way perfect is commonly understood; as one who is at all times unblemished, sinless, without mistakes I would disagree that we as individuals can obtain it. If the definition of being perfect at any moment is to merely respond to God’s love as He offers it, I would accept the notion. Accepting such a premise makes being perfect seems like less of a feat because it was God who took the first action and the one who gave individuals the options. People merely have to respond.

To love is to act intentionally, in response to God and others, to promote overall well-being. God loves all of us, all the time. We can love too. But we love, because God first loves you” I really liked this quote because love can’t be accidental it has to be intentional and purposeful. The only reason that we as humans are able to love is because God first love us. I think God has to be a perfect being in order to have an effect on us like that it has to come from a far greater all loving being.

What exactly does it mean when one is “perfect”? I am confused upon how it can be said that if you love than you are “perfect”. I love but I am no where near perfect, and I don’t think their is anyone who is. I believe that God loves everyone all the time, no matter what you have done; but why does loving make someone “perfect”?

I believe that many Christians do have a misconstrued definition of perfection. Christians often seem to remind people of the church such as myself that we are not perfect, that we are all fallen. But I think people almost use that as an excuse. Almost a disclaimer, “well God is the only one who is perfect so why try”. People don’t do that in such bold of terms, but it almost seems that people use this idea of imperfection as a reason to keep doing the things they shouldn’t. I like the idea that we can strive for perfection in the moment here on earth, by loving as God has called us to love. To love perfectly, I suppose that is what Christ did and would want us to do. We should challenge ourselves to strive for perfection rather than holding on to the idea that we can’t be perfect.

I have always thought of John Wesley’s idea of being “perfect” as a great step to start on, on a never ending stair case. While we will never reach true “human” perfection, we would be foolish to never try because to love is in our human nature. There are times that it is hard to love someone such as an enemy and there are different kinds of love for different situations, however we should always make a serious effort. John Wesley was correct in saying that ““We are every moment pleasing or displeasing to God”. There is the act of trying, however your outcome is the fact that you either “did” or “did not” which I believe is the same point that Wesley was making.

Making perfection a repetitive action of love makes both our walk with God and our interactions with other people a deliberate choice to follow the will of God. These actions, done often enough, begin to form habits and, I believe, begin reshaping our tendencies and desires. Creating a habit of love frees us from the choice by choice analysis that takes place when our actions are filtered through a specific formula. True perfection might be more than just acting out of love but instead wanting to act out of love.

It was interesting to me how some theologians believed in order for God to be perfect he could not and would never change. I believe that God has to be living in the moment with us in order to love and understand us. I agree with the Philosopher Hartshorne who states, “ As living creatures, we share with God the capacity for moment-by-moment experiences.” God is unchanging eternally however he changes with each individual moment-by-moment. I still have difficulty understanding that as humans we can achieve perfection through love but at the same time I can somewhat see how one who loves everyone and everything could be considered perfect. I hope to expand my perspective on this subject and learn more about these concepts throughout the course.

Some of the argument about change and relationality here seems to be a straw man. I do not know of any Christian writer, living or dead, who claims explicitly that God is not relational or living, or that God’s experience (whatever that means to us who are not experiencing it) does not change. From what I have read of Augustine and Aquinas, I cannot imagine either of them disagreeing with the statement that God is relational, living, AND unchanging. They didn’t see a problem there, and frankly, I don’t think there is one. What many Christians, including me, would disagree with is the claim that a change in God’s experience amounts to a change in God. If we as humans cannot live or relate without changing, that does not mean God has to work the same way. If we are always changed by our different experiences, God does not have to fit into that box. Every argument I have seen in favor of a God who changes ultimately rests on some sort of analogy with humans and how we change, and therefore creates God in our own image. But the argument that we can be perfect as humans, I believe, can stand without that preface. I believe it to be quite obvious that the Holy Spirit is stronger than our sinful nature, so if someone has the Holy Spirit living in them, it should be totally possible (in theory) for that person to be perfect in a particular moment. We are weak and it’s easy for us to turn and serve ourselves, so in practice we are not perfect in every moment. But I have no disagreement with the statement that it is possible for Christians, by the Holy Spirit’s power, to be perfect in this life.

First, I do not believe that we can ever be perfect because of the fall of man. This brings in the concept of free will. God gave us free will to make choices and sometimes we make wrong choices. God is perfect and is never changes in the love he has for us. He will always love us no matter what. We on the other hand do not have the capacity to love unconditionally all of the time, no one does not matter how perfect you may think you can be because we are not perfect like God. The problem is is that we can not fathom and truely understand God completely. When you start thinking you can fully understand God you will just start confusing yourself and start questioning God. The point of Christianity is based on faith and understanding the love that God has for you.

To learn that on can be perfect is quite shocking. Everyone is used to hearing, “no one is perfect”. I have heard it throughout my life and up until a few years ago, I went along with my life always thinking I could never be perfect and that I should not expect anyone else to be. It wasn’t until I took a Christian theology class that I learned everyone does have the capability to be perfect. It is in the moments that this is possible, I think to continuously be perfect is impossible. I think the moments that we are perfect are when we are allowing God to love through us in loving ourselves, others, and the earth and it creatures that have been given to us.

I have never been one to question the perfection of God because I have never looked at Him with any faults. I believe what John Wesley says is true. If we answer God’s call through us to love others, a state of perfection can be achieved. I do believe this state is only through Christ and His love and nothing else. Without God’s prompt, what basis do Humans give acts of love and what benefit do they have to gain if its not for the Christ? This is a question that I find very provoking.

First: I guess I’ve never questioned God’s perfection, whether that’s an error on my part or an innocence I’d like to have kept, I may never know.  What I’d like to know is who defined “perfection” and did we limit how perfection can be attained by giving it a definition?  What if perfection had been defined as something that could exponentially become more perfect than its previous perfection?  In my perusal of the definitions for “perfect” there are no requirements that perfection can’t be improved. 
Second: “Moment-by-moment perfection” - I think a moment-by-moment perspective should be adopted in more areas of our lives. Long-term goals and to-do lists are great, but while we are looking ahead to the next thing I believe we often forget to experience the moment we are in right then.  Striving for perfection moment-by-moment makes perfection appear somewhat attainable instead of a daunting, overwhelming task.

Like the many of the problem when it comes to religion, this argument doesn’t really take in consideration on the atheist? What would a non-believer in God do to become perfect? In fact there are many non-believers that is more perfect then those who believer in God. This doesn’t say much about the aspect of love and human being. Why love? Just act sympathetic/empathetic in relation to God.  Why can’t God change from imperfection to perfection? Why does changing have to do downhill?

This blog entry brings up a lot of good points. Points which I could discuss all evening.  But if I were to single out the most important idea brought out through this reading, it would be on the idea of achieving perfection like God.  The Christian doctrine is confusing in the sense that it challenges us to live a life like Jesus (or God) who is perfect.  And at the same time it is taught that none of us can live a perfect life because of our sinful tendencies.  But I think the concept of achieving perfection at times is valuable.  However, I think we can achieve perfection at times in ways other than just through acts of love (i.e., academia, use of skill).

If we can be perfect only in moments when we answer God’s call correctly, then are we disappointing God in every other moment? Or is that blip of perfecting all that he expects from us. Further more, if we are only perfect when we answer his call correctly, how can we ever know that we are perfect. What we think is correct might not be what God thought was correct. In the end, it all seems like a game of chance that we are likely to lose.

I dislike thinking of God as someone who is unchanging. I cherish the feeling that when I am hurting God is hurting with me and holding me through it, and when I make mistakes its nice knowing God cares about me so much that his heart is breaking for me. To be able to have all these relational feelings, God has to be able to change- However, I never even began to think that change and perfection are opposite of each other. I believe God is perfect in every moment, but I also believe He is abel to feel for his children.

I do however, like the idea that I am able to please God in my fleeting moments of perfection. I enjoy thinking that each moment in my life gives me an opportunity to improve on the last and to act as God would want me to and respond appropriately to His call to love. If only it were easier to do it all the time.

There is a lot to digest in this blog. One thing that was mentioned was that we can be perfect in a moment when we love in that moment. If this is true, that means that to be perfect is to constantly make a choice over and over again to love. It is not a choice that BAM, once we make it, we don’t have to do anything else. No, love is a continual choice that should influence the decisions we make. But then, do we not have love when we make the “wrong” choice? Or is it merely that our love is not perfect?

I do believe that the saying “be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect” does reference the love that God is giving us. The verses before this passage are talking about the love we need to show even to our enemies. I always like the fact that the blog stated that God is unchanging, because God will always love us whether or not we choose to give him love in return. I also believe that Jesus wants us to be perfect in the way we love everyone whether we are getting love in return or not. In my opinion, Jesus meant to love like God not exactly be like God, and that is how we are considered “perfect like our heavenly father.”

Up until this point, I have always taken Jesus’ call for us to be perfect as our heavenly father is perfect as something to strive towards, but not truly attainable. I knew that Jesus was the only human that walked the Earth that was perfect and I was not about to undermine His perfection by believing I could reach such a level. The way you have broken God’s perfection into two different states helps me understand how I can achieve what Jesus calls us to do. The idea that loving as God so loved allows an individual to be perfect like God in that moment is so powerful and I feel that it allows the person to feel that much closer to God in the moment.

“If being perfect means never changing (because God never changes), we cannot obey Jesus’ command to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect.”

This quote grabbed my attention and made me take a different view on this subject. I’ve always heard and been taught that God is unchanging… that’s it. I’ve never thought about two experiences of God’s eternal unchanging nature and also His living and changing experience. We can not imitate God in his eternal state but we can in his human state and this is how we are called to be perfect just as He had to be perfect when on Earth through being human and struggling as we do.

It’s hard to image that God can be so many things at once. It seems impossible for a spiritual being to love every individual when it appears as though not everyone is loved equally. Our perceptions are not grand enough to understand who God is but it is enough to understand what is happening in the moment because God relieves things to us over our life time during certain moments. This is where logic becomes irrelevant because it takes faith, patience, and perseverance to really understand where God wants you to go and who he really is.

I do agree that “The God who gives and receives love in relationship is one whose experiential life persists moment by moment.  God loves us in one moment. We may or may not love in return. God receives our response and loves us in the next moment.” My own experience has taught me that God wont reveal everything to you at once because you need to understand and learn how to act. This process helps lead you down the path God desires you to take but it is always a choice and choosing God also means choosing love. This also assumes that love only comes with God which is another thing we cant know for sure.

While I can appreciate the “moment-by-moment” illustration of human experience as an interesting way of understanding how we are influenced by our past and other factors surrounding us, I am hesitant to apply it to the pursuit and attainment of perfection as Wesley does. It seems to be a convenient answer to a complicated issue. In our recent discussions of love, we queried whether we could ever show true unconditional love. God called us to love, and he sets the example to follow. Perhaps he meant for us to strive to love as he loves and, similarly, to strive for perfection as he is perfect.

It is an interesting concept to think of God as being doubly perfect.  It definitely helps to explain how we could be able to love as God loves, which is perfectly.  And I think it is God’s love makes this kind of perfection possible.  I like the image of God loving us and giving us the chance to respond in kind and it doesn’t matter if we do or not, He’s still going to love us in the next moment.

I do not believe that as humans, we can be perfect like God. However, I do believe that when we love we are perfect. But I think that we are not always loving which would lead to us not always being perfect. God never stops loving and is therefore, always perfect. It is encouraging to think that the more love I demonstrate, the more like God I am. I really like the quote that “we love because first God loves us”. I think it is through his example we are able to love ourselves, others, and Him.

The notion that “we can be perfect here and now whenever we express love” was not something I heard growing up in the church or school, until Brent Peterson’s theology class. After talking through some of the concept it made sense to me. I feel a lot of Christians are taught you aren’t perfect till you get to heaven so they wait around for heaven without action, this perspective doesn’t seem very hopeful for us on earth. I really like what Pastor Barbra Nixon has to say in her article on Revelation and think it ties into some of the concepts in the entry.

I also noticed someone mentioning the phrase “practice makes perfect”, my father taught me that phase a little different and it went along the lines of “practice doesn’t make perfect, practice makes permanent and perfect practice makes perfect”. If you practice a lot and are doing it wrong you are just developing a bad habit, but if you learn to do it right and then practice it you can do it perfectly. So, we need to learn to love right to do it perfectly as well.

Barbara Nixon: Through peace and love, God is making all things new   Copyright: © 2012 Idaho Statesman
http://www.idahostatesman.com/2012/01/07/v-print/1942631/barbara-nixon-through-peace-and.html

I take this perfection model one step further than just being moment by moment perfection. I see perfection as being what you were created to be; to fulfill your purpose on earth. This requires the moment to moment love described above. I also believe that the process of becoming “the real you” (the You that as God had intended, e.i. the perfect you) is considered perfection. If you are who God intended to be in a certain moment, you are perfect.

I agree with this idea of being perfect. I grew up thinking that perfection was unattainable and that Jesus was the only one that could ever be perfect. That’s why we are sinners right? Why even try to be perfect if we already screwed it up? However, I’ve come to believe what others have said. Being perfect is responding to God and being what you are created to be. By doing this, we are made perfect.

I like your idea on what perfection is. As humans beings we are born sinners and therefore we are not perfect in the sense of we never make mistakes. But when Jesus commands us to be perfect like our Father, the idea of love is the closest thing to being perfect as humans can get. God knows that as humans we make mistakes, and only a perfect God could forgive us for what we do.  We as humans are called to love and be perfect like our Father.

I liked some of the points it presented, like living in the “moment-to-moment” and God being doubly perfect. Those are in theory a great way to look at perfection but I am hesitant to buy into it all the way. I do not believe that we as human beings can ever obtain perfection like God, I do however believe that when we do acts of love we are practicing perfection. I believe it’s a goal, as we live our lives trying to be the person God has intended or planned for us to be, we are perfect in his sight. I think trying to live a life that is perfect like God is unrealistic.

The idea that in order for God to be perfect He must be unchanging may be an old argument, but it is a fairly new concept to me.  Hartshorne’s doubly perfect idea of God makes a lot of sense though. We have to understand that God is eternal, but that He is still living.  Since we are not eternal, we cannot be perfect in ways that relate to the eternal aspect, yet we are living and changing from day-to-day as the relational God is.  I appreciate the view that God changes with me throughout my life and offers me perfection moment-by-moment, whether I choose to respond to it or not.  Love is something that most every person can relate to, and allows us to attempt to be perfect as God is perfect in terms that are easier for us to understand.

I think the idea of a “changing” God, who experiences perfection in greater ways every moment is the one that most goes against the beliefs I was taught as a child. There are so many songs that sing of our unchanging God, but I think those ideas are perhaps premature in notion. This idea in fact explains very well one possibility of how God experiences life, and is definitely very viable.

The idea that God is “unchangingly perfect” when it comes to his love for us is exact how I envision his love for us to be.  Being human, we are inherently imperfect, but that is kind of a requirement in order to understand what perfection can be, as one concept can’t exist without the other.  But it isn’t the end result of achieving perfection that what’s important, it is still a noble goal.  What’s really important is the journey towards perfection, which is what humanity is continually going through.  We’re not perfect, and we certainly have a long way to go.  But, through God’s “unchanging” love for us, despite our imperfection, we can probably understand what perfection truly is.  God still loves us despite all of our flaws, and that, to me, is the best sense of “perfection”.

It is difficult for me to comprehend the idea of becoming perfect, and I’m not sure that I agree with it. Even if our sinful nature could allow us to make a completely perfect act of love towards another being, I don’t think that that action in itself can make the rest of me perfect, even if it is just in a moment. I liked the illustration that you drew on the board in class about making a decision in each moment, which is influenced by every moment before. Because every moment is influenced by the past, which is filled with imperfections, I don’t think that perfection could be achieved.

I believe that there is a reason God calls us to be perfect like him, because he gives us the ability to become perfect like him. This does not mean that all people will become perfect, in fact I have never known a person that has been perfect in God. I know that from scriptures, God gives us the ability, but that ability relies heavily on human reception. As Christians, we are already receptive to the word, but not always receptive to the actions. Becoming perfect like Christ is a challenge in my opinion of being receptive.

I’ve always liked the idea that perfection must be linked to love. I think in order to understand, or even begin to comprehend God, we must have a starting point based on a love nature and go from there. If we view perfection through this lens, the idea of human progress towards perfection through love seems a much more attainable and relational goal rather than the traditional sense, where perfection almost seems like the unreachable and serves as an ultimate separation between us and God.

The “moment-by-moment” experiences of life are definitely important. Although this is how we truly live our lives, I think that sometimes we forget how important each moment is. Often times we get caught up in the big picture of life. It was new to me to think of God’s loving relationship with people as being a moment-by-moment relationship. However, this makes sense and was made even further interesting with the explanation that God’s love is a “give-and-receive” relationship.

Charles Hartshorne’s refers to God as being “doubly perfect.” He writes, “Suppose God is ‘that individual being than which no other individual being could conceivably be greater, but which itself, in another ‘state,’ could become greater.’”  It is hard for me to grasp the idea of a being that may change into other “states” and yet, become even greater.  I get the idea of the perfect being that is God and only a perfect being may experience perfect love, however, God created us after His own image, we are far from being perfect beings but I believe that He gives as glimpses into what perfect love is.  Our moment-by-moment experiences also change, but we just can’t- for obvious reasons, “exhibit perfection in an enriched state of actuality.”  Therefore, He gives us moments in time, where everything comes together just right for a split second and leaves as breathless.  I’ve heard a moment like this maybe experience by mothers when they first meet their child, or when a farm boy (or girl) from Iowa sees his/her first Hawaiian sunset in a perfect late summer day.  God allows us to feel and experience perfect love in splits seconds at a time because that’s all we can handle.  I can’t imagine existing without a purpose, seeking, improving, or driving towards.  God gives us insight to love, which we may refer to as an “indescribably amazing moment,” so we may also experience His abundant and what it might feel like, even if it’s a trickle at at time.

This is a difficult thought for me to process. The idea of being perfect doesn’t possible for a Hunan to be. “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”... For this reason, it seems like it is impossible to truly be a perfect human being. Though the article states “if we love as God calls us to love, we are perfect.” The thought be being perfect, in this case seems like it is something to work towards. Though is that truly living and being a perfect person if you start at an imperfect stage? Jesus’ life was perfect because He never sinned. For this reason, it seems difficult for someone to be a perfect person.

I agree with Dr. Oord in that we can be perfect, but only when follow God’s will. We are incapable of loving perfectly as God does all the time, but I beleive when we live like Jesus and put God in the front of all else; I think we are perfect. As Dr. Peterson said in my intro to theology class, “You are perfect if you are loving God, loving others, loving yourself, and caring for creation.” This gives me joy, a feeling that I am enough for God and won’t have to always strive to be better.

I have never heard the theory that God could be changing, which is interesting to me. It makes more sense that is I was made in His image then maybe the fact that mankind changes is a reflection of God. Very thought-provoking.

I have always thought that God is Love! And for someone who is in relationship with God who is Love, can also achieve that type of love. This is to say that I agree with John Wesley that we can love in a moment. I think that I like this thought the most because for a human to try to wrap their head around the idea of love in general it is too large. But if we think about it in the sense that we can love like God in certain moments, or instances, then we have an easier time working towards loving in just the moments. This makes love a little simpler to understand, I think. I know that when I think about anything in small chunks I tend to stay focused and I am more successful as well. It’s sort of like baby steps.

I really like the ideal that when we love we are perfect. Often times I feel as though things in the past can weigh us down and make us feel like we can never be perfect or even come close to it. For me this article gives hope that in each moment I can be perfect. I feel that if we remember that we can be perfect in every moment it places more importance on the here and now over what decisions you have done in the past.

I had try to post some good arguments earlier, but for some reason this blog hates me and will not let me post a comment. So basically I do not agree that we can in any way become perfect like God. If I was capable of perfection I would not need God.